Posted by DodiaFae on September 22, 2008
WARNING: There is some graphic information posted below which is not suitable for minors to read. Unfortunately it is nothing that you can't buy at you local bookstore, and you don't need an ID to prove you're 18 to do so.
MM All,
First of all, I'd like to begin this post by saying that I know that there are folks who will be outraged that I've dared post such a thing. I'm going to say this once: Do not post flames here. If you feel the need to argue this subject or light up your flame-thrower, I've started a discussion for that purpose in the main PaganSpace discussions. As much as I'd love for one of the discussions in this group to be that busy, the purpose of this post is mainly informational.
Note: On 9/25, the discussion on PaganSpace was closed by the PaganSpace owner due to complaints about the discussion and a fear of legal backlash. Let me reiterate: I will not allow any flames on this network. If anyone posts anything that appears to be in support of pedophilia or any form of child abuse, it will be copied and immediately deleted. The purpose of this network is to fight child abuse, not support it. It is also meant as a safe-haven for survivors. Repeat offenders will be banned from the network.
I would also like to apologize to "Pagan", who posted about this a while back, and I ended up removing his post for lack of a response to further questions. He was, in fact, alluding to the fact that Gavin and Yvonne Frost had been at a Florida Pagan Gathering, and were even speakers at the gathering. Unfortunately, he has since left PaganSpace, and so I don't know if he will see my apology.
When I first read his post, I did get them confused with the Farrers, because I did at one time own both versions of the "Witches' Bible". I still have the one written by the Farrers, but had many years ago loaned out the "Good Witches' Bible" written by the Frosts, and never got it back. I never bothered to replace it, because I didn't care to have it in my collection.
However, upon doing some research into the matter, my memory was refreshed as to why I didn't care to have their book in my collection. They make very clear references, even graphic instructions, on child abuse within their church.
AJ Drew has started a DeFROST Campaigne on PaganNation.
On his page, he lists actual text from Gavin and Yvonne Frost's book, "The Good Witches' Bible", which was originally called "The Witches' Bible". He lists some of the information added in the forward of later editions, which neither apologizes nor denounces the information in earlier editions, and that information was never removed from later editions.
Here is an excerpt from that second link:
Chapter IV
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
Note the use of the word “child”. As I understand this statement we are speaking about prepubescent / onset of puberty. Perhaps the age of 10.
“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “
Note that according to this statement, it seems what follows would have been led by Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the Heads of their Coven.
“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”
Note: Note the use of the word “child” in this sentence. Note also that this sentence appears in the same discussion as the reference to the age being the onset of puberty. Obviously, we are speaking of children well under legal age and apparently about 10 years of age.
“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”
Note: I did not know that home genital surgery was part the Wiccan religion.
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”
Note: There are two phalluses. One large, one small. There are instructions for making them using wood dowels, nylon cord, and wax. The object of this exercise appears to be to stretch the virgin vagina to make it ready for coitus. Remember, as we discussed earlier we might be speaking about a 10 year old girl.
Table Five contains the following instructions
“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
Note: As I understand this, a 10 year old girls father should help her with the home made phalli? In the state of Ohio, this is rape. In any state, this is obscene.
“After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.”
Note: The table provides the time and schedule to use the two devices of differing sizes.
“The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. ”
Note: The importance of fasting will become evident later.
“Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. “
Note: As I understand this passage, this states that a live sex show should be given to children as early as the age of 10 years of age.
“The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it.”
Note: As I understand this statement, children the age of 10 years old should make decisions on the use or lack of use of birth control prior to having sex.
“The flamenca gives the novice a full glass of mead.”
Note: While I am not a doctor, I believe the result of having a child or most adults fast for three days and then drink a “full glass” of a high carbohydrate alcoholic beverage would be near instant intoxication.
“Bring back the fruits of your sponsor’s body”
Note: Although the instruction is not specifically to go have sex, with the wording of the preparation, this instruction is not hidden at this point. So at this point, we might be speaking of a 10 year old girl, removed from her parents care, raped by her father with a series of home made dildos, fasting for three days, intoxicated on mead, and told to go have sex with her sponsor. In the case of a male child, skip the dildo and include genital surgery.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against stifling people's freedom of speech. However, I believe there should be a line drawn at writing about how to molest and rape children, just as there are laws against inciting violence. And the proof is in their own writings.
Drew also posted earlier this year about gatherings they've attended.
Oddly, some time last year Gavin and Yvonne posted a retaliation to claims that they promote ritual child sexual abuse on their blog. They somehow managed to completely miss the reason for the disgust that many seem to feel about their book and practices, because the focus of their argument is on the genital surgery and destroying of the hymen. They don't even mention the sexual initiation, the intercourse, between child and sponsor.
What I found more disturbing, after wading through all the comments, is that there are those who somehow manage NOT to see just what is wrong with initiating a child in such a way. When they've tried to defend them by claiming that it is a description of "how things used to be done", and were called on it for proof that it wasn't an instructional, and that things indeed "used to be done" this way, they simply become belligerent and give no such proof.
They clearly state that "When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven." "When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction", also known as "puberty". I don't know about any of you, but that happened for me when I was 12. Most of my friends were 10 when they were so blessed, and I even had one friend who was 8 years old when she began menstruation. This is the age at which they are given "phalluses" and an instruction sheet on how to use them, and told to ask their father or sponsor for assistance.
And these are people who have attended FAMILY gatherings.
I also want to point out that I did check my copy of the Farrers' "Witches' Bible", and they believe that The Great Rite is best performed by consenting adults who already have a love commitment between them, in private.
So, to say the least, I do like Drew's term "DeFrost". I am not Wiccan, but I have read enough of the responses to this topic to know that a great many Wiccans are appalled by this... some are appalled that these people call what they practice Wicca (I'm personally appalled that they even consider themselves to be Pagans!) Others are appalled that anyone would call them on it, which I find difficult to understand. If anyone handed my 10-12 year old daughter a set of phalli and an instruction sheet, I'd beat them senseless with them. Hell, if they handed these things to my 15 year old daughter I'd beat them senseless with them. If it was to prepare them for sex initiation, I'm likely to do much worse than that.
My reasons for posting this will be made clear, but suffice it to say that I fully intend to support Drew's "DeFrost" campaign. To that end, I will be purchasing a copy of their book (used, because I wouldn't give them another of my dimes). I'm going to go through the book and highlight everything that promotes pedophilia, and very carefully look for anything that says that it is not meant as an instructional. This way, I will have the information readily available for those who don't believe that this is what it says it is.
I will also be posting a letter-writing campaign shortly.
Brightest Blessings,
~ DodiaFae
Replies to This Discussion
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Reply by Rain on -
This is under the it may not be this year but was. Several gatherings in Florida are either sponsored or at least thank the Frosts for the support - which is where I inadvertantly ran into them. I am unsure if they are still supporting authors but they were as of May or this year. I am glad someone mentioned it. Even though I had read the book and it sickned me and I darn sure would not have wanted any of my kids then to , I had not thought about it till I saw them.
I would never wish to speak ill of those who do hold gatherings but I admit it made me darn uncomfortable knowing they were there as were families.
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Reply by DodiaFae on -
That is what Pagan, who was a member of the PACA group a few months ago, was posting about. I regret having removed that post for lack of response from him, as it turns out he was having internet connectivity issues.
I don't think people who write such things should be allowed to attend any family gathering, which is what the Florida Pagan Gathering was. When I wrote to them to ask why such people were allowed at family gatherings, the answers I got were basically that they have a zero tolerance policy where abuse is concerned, and that the Frosts were never convicted of abuse. It was also suggested that I take it up with the Frosts, but my question about why they were allowed to attend, and even speak, was not for the Frosts to answer, but for those organizing the gathering. I never got a straight answer.
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Reply by Rain on
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Join the club on that one! I was asked when I moved down here - due to being involved up North with Pagan activities - to join staff - I did not .
I went in May to see it and that was enough for me. I dont get answers to questions and I am such a stubborn witch - so when something feels wrong I know its not for me. But getting answers requires I think some type of medievel tooth removal device and large handlers!
I do get the glad handle approach - which is about the equivalent of the traditional middle finger!
In May I was told though that they - being staff etc - did confront the Frosts and were not wanting to give them space to hold workshops. Problem with that is Friday at the staff gathering they were toasted ...so mixed signals?
Like I said it was the last time I ever bothered with their events. There is plenty of groups down here I can get involved with and not question the integrity nor the people involved.
But then I am also opinionated and when I went the one thing that stuck out in the adult area was it had more of a interest in hook ups then actual sprituality . But that was only my individual percpetion as there were some really niice people I met there. But to say sex is not an underlying issue - may be not public but there would be a lie - I was not the only one who felt so but I am possibly one of the few that does not give a damn if someone appreciated me pointing it out.
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Reply by Leith Carnie on -
Ye Gods, I feel sick!
I own one book by the Frosts "The Magical power of white witchcraft" (even the title makes me shudder) it was purchased as a gift by a friend.... they found it in a discount book shop. I read it once, laughed my butt off at the sheer stupidity of its contents and put it in the back of my cupboard. My partner also owns a book by them.... she thinks theyre crap as well.
But child abuse and rape? I had no idea. How in the world has this book been allowed to circulate? After defending the Pagan religions from Christians and Conspiracy theorists making allegations of "satanic ritual abuse" occuring I now feel rather sheepish. I willing to eat my words as there is grounds for the allegations. I personally know Pagans who are child abusers and rapists who have gotten away with it due to a legal system that seems to side with the offenders. They have both reoffended and yet still walk free. I only know one Pagan who was gaoled for a grand total of 18months for stat rape in a "Pagan Church". I have his name, photo and an email he sent the victim after he finished his gaol term. Im willing to post them as a warning if permission is granted from Dodia.
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Reply by DodiaFae on
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You'd be surprised at how vehemently many in the Pagan community will defend the Frosts... it's disgusting. However, I think that their brand of "FROSTed Wicca", while maybe spreading due to the internet and their publishing of books, is mainly in the US. It should not be confused with the Wicca practiced by the Farrers, as they made a point to print in their "A Witch's Bible" that The Great Rite should be performed by ADULT, established couples (who are committed to one another) only, and in private. This business of sexually initiating children, mixing partners, and "doing it in circles" is was started by the Frosts.
The book, unfortunately, is allowed to circulate because it's considered "freedom of speech". One of the things that I encourage all PACA members to do is to let booksellers know what the content is, and if they still choose to sell it, shop elsewhere (and let everyone they know what kind of books that store chooses to sell.)
BTW, this discussion was also posted on the PACA group on PaganSpace, as well as a discussion on the PaganSpace main forum. The discussion in the main forum very quickly turned hostile, with many PaganSpace members actually defending the book and it's authors, to the point of calling this form of child rape "tribalism", calling those of us who see it for what it is "zealots" who are trying to push our "Christian morals" on the world. That discussion was deleted by Starrfire, the owner of the site, but not before one member suggested I would be a good candidate for human sacrifice, if it ever became legal.
A day or so later, another member (thinking I had deleted the discussion) re-posted it. Same thing, the discussion became hostile and was closed and deleted. I think I did save that one before it disappeared.
As for posting the information about the convicted sex offender... I know I posted that you should go right ahead before, but I need to amend that. Before saying someone has been convicted of a sex crime, and posting all their information, we need to have the proof of his conviction and what the crime was.
The reason for this is that it would really be defamation of character if any of it is not true. This is different from calling people online for their inappropriate, even blatantly predatory behavior because a person can't claim a screen name as their identity. Also, screen captures of their behavior is proof, and is always forwarded to LE. But to post a man's real name and location online for all the world to see is another matter all together.
If you have the proof of conviction and the crime to post with the information, please do so. I apologize if this isn't the answer you wanted, but we have to protect ourselves from legal action.
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Reply by BubbleBuddy on -
As a pagan mom who was accused of my children participating in "pagan rituals" rather than pagan gatherings, I gotta say that this is the stuff that makes me look bad. We have to fight this stuff for the rights of children who are exploring paganism in a loving and safe way as well as those who are being abused in the name of religion.
Unfortunately, it hurts an entire religion when this happens and it divides rather than bring people together to protect children.
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Reply by DodiaFae on
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Oh, I agree! But one of the problems is that far too many Pagans wish to cover it up, and that makes us all look even worse. Too many think that it's more important to present a "united front" when any information that might be disparaging to Paganism as a whole is brought to the forefront.
Too many Pagans think that "all paths are valid", even if they include child sexual abuse. While I do understand that not all Pagans abide or believe the "Harm None" rule, the Frosts call themselves Wiccan, and my understanding of Wicca is that they are supposed to abide that rule, and sexual abuse of children is harmful no matter what spin anyone tries to put on it. If those of us who are against the sexual initiation of minors don't speak out about it, then we're lumped in with those that do.
Unfortunately, I've run into too many Pagans who argue in favor of a parent's/coven's right to sexually initiate a child at the onset of puberty (or to allow it), and have been called a zealot (and worse) for my steadfast stance against it. Personally, I'd rather be called all those things than to become one of the voices that give in and say it's OK (or a form of "tribalism", as one person argued on another network) and not be the voice that those children need me to be.
Let's face it, had a certain other religious organization (that I won't mention here... that's for another discussion all together) not kept their silence and hidden the truth for so long, so many fewer children would have suffered for it. I don't want Paganism to be seen that way. The way I see it, the only way to fix the way others see Paganism as a whole is to draw those who abuse it out into the light and expose them for what they are. I think that once that happens, it will go a long way to helping the rest of us prove that we're not all monsters.
Can you tell that this is a topic that really gets to me? LOL I get a bit long-winded when it comes to this, even when someone's agreeing with me. x^p
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Reply by BubbleBuddy on
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To me the ONLY united front is one that denounces any and all forms of child abuse. I am somewhat involved in my local pagan community but not in any coven or group. I am closer to a Native American spiritual path and the belief that you cannot lie to a child (my kids know the easter bunny and santa are fun stories) or harm a child in any way is part of it. All the pagans I personally know do their best to follow the harm none rule, but there is a side that believes the end justifies the means and children are mere pawns or property (also very true of the professed christian abuser I'm dealing with)
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Reply by DodiaFae on
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I agree that the only united front is the one that denounces all forms of child abuse. I don't see any gray areas in this fight, and that pisses a lot of people off.
I hope you are able to protect your children... maybe that professed Christian you're dealing with should read more of Christ's teachings, particularly those where children are concerned. He might learn something important.
